Interview conducted by the Affinity Project in December 2005; Published in June 2008.
Part Two Available Here
Part Three Coming Soon!
*
Here in New York City, we’re focusing on this harm-free zone idea. The harm-free zone idea is basically to encourage people in different communities to develop their own ways of resolving issues in the community instead of dialing 911, calling the police.
So, we had a round table discussion several months ago, where we invited different community based groups to present the idea, to go into details about what we’re thinking, to see how that might fit into their agenda. If they were interested, then we would help to develop a curriculum and training, and help to provide resources that actually give them a way to implement this harm-free zone. We’re getting ready to have a second round table discussion, actually, in another week or two, I believe.
That’s pretty much where my Critical Resistance work is right now. Critical Resistance also does stuff around general prison abolitionists and anti-prison industrial complex work. But also, we have this great relationship with a women’s drug rehab residential program, where we have been able to go in and help develop a kind of leadership curriculum - so that they can come out and be able to work amongst their peers in terms of fighting around issues particular to them. Most of them are ex-cons, former prisoners. There’s all kinds of issues that they face - whether it’s trying to get their families, their children back, whether it’s getting public assistance, whether it’s going to college, whether it’s getting medical care. So, the whole thing is to get them to become their own leaders.
Also, I’m a member of Estacion Libre, which is a U.S. based support group for the Zapatista struggle in Mexico. The general thing around Estacion Libre is that we want to provide ways for more people of colour to be able to go to Chiapas, to see what the Zapatistas struggle is about - their ideas, their different style of organizing. So, it’s not just to provide support for the Zapatistas but to really pick up lessons and ideas that we can bring back here in our different struggles here in the United States, whatever communities we come from - so that we can figure out some better ways to organize here.
That’s mainly done through delegations. But right now, there are also people beginning to try to establish different organizations within the communities they’re from. For example, in Durham, North Carolina, the Estacion Libre folks - they’ve got space. They’re getting ready to develop a bilingual program with a growing Mexican population there that would provide everything from English to English as Second Language thing to helping them to organize around some of the issues that they face in Durham - one of which is to try and build bridges between the Mexican population and the black population there.
Interviewer: What’s that relationship like right now?
Right now, it’s tense. Because one of the things that I found out - I was just down there, maybe several months ago. Both populations are poor. But a lot of times, some members of the black population who are engaged in robberies or stuff, they will exploit the Mexican population because they know this population can’t automatically run to the police. So, their communities are really geographically close. One of the things that Estacion Libre is getting ready to do is set up some bridges so that something can happen or some programs that would bring both of them into services, so that they can start getting to know each other and maybe cut down on some of the tension between them.
Out in Los Angeles, Estacion Libre out there does a lot of work with building with other organizations - where in their mind, they’re building autonomy. So, some of that are educational programs. One other thing is this café that’s used as an organizing centre, called Eastside Café. They also work to support these farmers who live right in the middle of South Central Los Angeles, who have actually taken over this land in this industrial area. They’ve been growing their own food for the last, maybe 10 years. The city is trying to move on them to get them out of there. But really, if you were to go there and see what they’re doing, every family has a plot of land on this ground. They have worked out amongst themselves their relationship. They grow this food primarily to feed themselves. But it also became a way for them to connect in terms of creating a community and also to remember even why they came to the United States - because they were poor.
One woman who we had talked to - she was from Mexico. She said that her doing this farming in this area reminded her of growing up as a little girl, growing your own food and taking care of your family. She said that what that space does - her family is able to come there; they have little cookouts and stuff like that. They build with whatever the neighbour plots are; they build these relationships with the neighbour plots. So, they really have found a way to bond together, to want to defend this land. It’s just really nice; it’s really nice. Because it’s just so basic. These people - you don’t hear all this high level analysis. This is just basic, simple. We had to survive. They found a way to do it. It’s so interesting because they found a way to share this land - so that everybody who wanted to come do this would have a plot and they would help each other. That’s the basis of their commitment.
Interviewer: Since Estacion Libre is trying to build relationships between African-American communities in Los Angeles ...
In Los Angeles, there’s definitely a need for bridges. Because even there, the relations between the two communities are very bad. We’re hoping that we’re going to be able to kind of build some bridges. That is going to be more of a challenge than I think Durham because they do a lot of fighting. When I was there in the summer, the high schools, a couple of high schools - there were these outbreaks of fighting. Of course, the media’s blowing it up and stuff, in terms of race and stuff. But it keeps these communities so tense. Hopefully, because Estacion Libre is so diverse, that maybe we can be one of the forces that can get different groups to sit down.
Interviewer: What’s the relationship like inside the groups themselves, between African-Americans and Latinos? In the group itself, is there a lot of those conflicts that are outside that are on the inside? How’s that going to work?
If you go on the delegation, for example, go on Estacion - one of the good things about a delegation when we go to Mexico - in Chiapas, we have the orange house; the orange house is this house that we rent. This is where the delegations come. Usually, delegations come from different parts: L.A., northern California, North Carolina, Chicago, New York, Boston - very diverse group. It seems to always happen that the same conflicts that might happen in the different communities they come from are going to happen in a delegation. But it gives us a chance in the delegation to really explore it, to really get into it, to really confront each other on what’s really going on here. We really try to get into it so that people don’t gloss over things. Because sometimes, there’s a tendency to think that because we are all people of colour, we’re just all supposed to get along - as if there’s no real history; there’s no real class differences; there’s no other kind of just ethnic tension that just may come from the way that the United States is set up.
So, even on the last delegation when I was there, a large amount of people who were on the delegation were from L.A. L.A. tends to be heavily Chicano when they come on the delegations. From the north, another place like New York and places, you may get more African-Americans, Asians, stuff like that. Tensions came. But we had a chance to really get into it - one was misconceptions about who we are. Some class shit came up. But there was this commitment that whatever it was, we’re going to try work this through. It came around things about choice of music, sharing food, doing chores or even just talking. I think someone was even just talking about our different struggles, and how sometimes one’s pride of their people or their struggles sometimes sounds like arrogance, and others want to know where’s that coming from, or some use, some choice of words in describing the other people sometimes has a tinge of racism. Issues came up. For us, that’s part of what we want this space to be.
So, it’s not just like we’re going to visit the Zapatistas. We want the space to be where we also really get an idea of what struggle takes for us here in the United States - that is, just not we’re all suppose to get along. We come with contradiction. We come with histories. So, we tell people even when they come on the delegation, that if you’re not used to living collectively, you’re going to learn it here. If you’re not used to being around a lot of different people, you’re going to come into contact with different people here. So, expect issues. But look at it as this is normal struggle. This is why we’ve got to learn to kind of struggle through things. That’s kind of how we want the space to be. Our whole goal is how to make this revolution (small ‘r’) happen here on a real tip.
So, we go there and we actually find out that the Zapatistas - they were different communities, indigenous communities, spoke different languages. They had to go through some stuff; they didn’t magically come together. So, we want people to be more realistic.
Interviewer: Do you think it helps that you have moved completely out of the country?
Outside - yes, that helps so much. Because here, we’re just caught up into the everyday. Outside of here, we’ve got really a chance to focus. That space gives us that chance to really just focus on some issues that we’ve been having. Here, that’s prevented movements from coming together.
Interviewer: What kind of skills - that people who are sort of mediators that come and deal with it? Or is it everyone trying to figure it out together?
Well, I think it happens both ways. Usually, there’s Estacion Libre people - we’re the ones who organize the delegation. We may tend to be kind of like the lead facilitator. But we’re always encouraging people in the group to do their own facilitation, or just to make the space such that, sometimes, it just kind of happens naturally - that some will just facilitate. That tends to be what happens. Someone will step up and facilitate, or maybe a couple of people will just step up. So far, a lot of the time, people who organize the delegations, some of us have skills with facilitating. But every delegation I have been on, you’re going to find members of the group who know how to do it, or who learn how to do it and find that they just can do it. It’s all right to confront tension. I think that’s the big thing about the delegation. People learn that it’s all right to confront tension.
Interviewer: Do you think people are otherwise socialized to avoid this?
Oh man, oh man - to even admit that there’s tension is to kind of confirm that we can’t do this. I don’t want to be involved with that, or I know that person’s attitude, and we’re like - yo, how do you expect this struggle to happen if we don’t meet these things? That’s what this is about.
Interviewer: What kind of interaction do you have with the people, like the Zapatistas in Mexico? How do they see this sort of work that is going on? You’re going there to do stuff with them at the same time, right? So, what’s their view on these contradictions and how has it maybe helped that relationship or hindered it?
Now, they don’t really get much of a sense on what our internal dynamics are. What they do get a sense of, a lot for the first time, is that there are struggles within the United States - struggles and particularly struggles of people of colour. One reason that Estacion Libre came together - because two people that kind of started it, when they went over there, it was just mostly young white activists going over there. The Zapatistas didn’t have a real understanding of people of colour’s existence here and struggles. So, when we went over - they always want to know your stories when we come. So, it would be us giving them, probably for the first time, some real in-depth understanding of our struggles here. So, I think, one of the main things that they get from us is that they find out there are these people of African descent who struggle. They get more understanding in terms of the Chicano struggle and why that struggle takes on a particular character here that may be different from Mexicans. Asian struggles - we’ve got people from South Asia, like India, Pakistan, from the Pacific Islands and other places.
They really get for the first time that the United States is, I don’t know who called it, one of the prison house of nations. There’s all these oppressed people. It’s not a monolithic thing when they think of the United States - everybody ain’t down with the Empire. For them, they have a lot of questions. We always encourage people to just share with them who you are and what you do. So, they get more of that than the internal. I’m always curious in terms of Zapatistas, more the particulars on how they deal with internal stuff - contradictions, issues around sexism, hierarchy, cultural stuff. That’s always my thing. Even if I get to go in the next couple of weeks, I would love to develop relations where I could learn more of how to deal with that. Sometimes, I think that that’s some of the things that we can help shed light with them on. I tend to think that they may not deal with issues around sexism, heterosexism, and some issues around hierarchy like we do. So, for them to know, it might be insightful to them.
Interviewer: Do you feel
there’s
conflict sometime between the delegations and the Zapatistas? If that happens,
how does it get worked out?
Sometimes, I think because we’re
coming from here - if there is conflict that surround us, kind of coming to grips
with our privilege. When you go to Zapatistas communities, there are some things
they want you to respect - no drinking, there’s no getting high and if
you’re in a community
or caracole, they pretty much want you to stay within the boundaries. They
don’t want you to go wandering off. Because you may wander to somebody
else’s territory, somebody else’s home or whatever. Sometimes,
arrogant Americans, United States’ Americans, may wander and then find
that there are some Zapatista folks coming to get them and saying - you’ve
got to stay with your group. We may find that offensive. But then, we always
do a group orientation thing. People have got to understand that this is their
land. They operate a certain way for their own protection. You have to learn
to respect that. I think some conflicts also come in terms around - sometimes,
we don’t understand why they may not want you to take pictures, why they
may not want you to give gifts to their kids and stuff like that. Sometimes,
that comes a little hard for you - like why? But they are very much concerned
that little favouritisms don’t happen in the different communities over
something that might just be simple with us. It takes us to kind of sit back
and just think about it a little bit.
Other than that, we haven’t really experienced any conflicts other than, I think, maybe several years ago, there may have been little things around people trying to get a little too involved with internal politics of Zapatistas community, wherever they were at. One has to learn that’s not your business and don’t take sides...
Interviewer: What kind of work do you guys do when you go down there - manual labour or...?
It used to be that there were two different kinds of delegation - one was a work delegation, which was specific. You may have been working on anything from building a latrine to a water system, different things like that. Or the second delegation was where you’re pretty much visiting communities, different communities. The work delegation - you’re going to be at one place because there’s a specific thing you’re going to be working on. With the other one where you’re visiting different communities, it’s really to give you a sense of how these communities operate, give you a chance to network with people, for you to learn from them - it’s more educational. Right now, the last couple of years, we haven’t done the work delegations. So, the delegations more have been visiting different communities, getting to see how they operate, getting to ask questions, developing relationships with them.
Interviewer: So, most of the work stuff is sort of being handled by a lot of the people down there. I’ve heard there’s tons of people that want to work and they don’t necessarily want everyone - is that sort of what’s going on?
I don’t know if they don’t want everyone. But there are a lot of work delegations. I think what they’ve done is - I think they’re just really specific about what kind of work that they do want. I think one of the reasons around the implementing of this caracole thing is that they want people who want to do work to really find out from the communities what the communities need rather than what people from outside think that they need. I think that’s what’s happening more now. I’ll tell you who does really good work and sets a really good example is Ya Basta. Really good - I’ve got big respect for them. Then, there’s other individual groups that do really good work - from groups to individuals. Some of our friends down there, they’re good with computers. The different caracoles - they want a computer hookup, so that they can be able to communicate more with each other and people around the world but also because they want to develop a more transparent accountability system. They want to learn more about computers; so we’ve got friends that just help them set up computers.
Interviewer: By transparent, what do you mean?
They want, for example, in Oventique - they set up the computer so that they can log moneys and productions, information like that, so that once they log this down, what would it be called?
Interviewer: It’s like a flow, they want to do money flow production ....
Yeah, yeah. Then, they set it up. They’ve got this big barn-like thing. They put the information up on big sheets, so that anybody can come in and see - this much money was taken in, this much money was spent, this much was produced in the shoe factory and the women’s cooperative. They want people to see. They don’t want to hide anything.
Interviewer: So, an alternative economy - they want it to be visible ...
Yeah. To see what the Zapatistas are doing - this is a group that I think why it inspires a lot us, especially those of us who are anarchists, is that they don’t call themselves anarchists. But everything they do is so anarchistic. It’s bringing people into the process, being transparent, being accountable, being responsible for governing your own affairs. The whole thing with having just regular people sit on the Hontas - damn, you come out, people who are even afraid because they’ve never been in positions like that. But they are encouraging - no, you can do it. People will be writing notes and stuff every time they sit down. Because after they finish their two week tour, the notes are for the next group - so that they’ll know what’s transpired, what decisions were made, what’s pending. That stuff is amazing. This is just basic regular people. What’s so amazing about what they’re doing is because it ain’t all that deep. It just shows that, yeah, all along we can figure out how to live.
Interviewer: How do you try and practically translate that back? I know that the object of the experiment is to show that experiment - it’s to bring back and say what can we do here.
Yeah. It’s the same. It doesn’t matter that this is a rural area. But the principal things about it are that people have to meet face to face. People have to bring information; people have to figure out what parts of their lives can they begin to take over control of and then work out a way to sustain it. So, in New York with this harm-free zone thing that we’re trying to do, we want people just to see that you can take back over your life, small area, right - that a lot of it depends on us meeting, breaking down on our own isolation, alienation from each other, meeting, figuring out what we want to do, and how we can do it in a way that everybody knows who’s responsible for this and who’s responsible for that. It’s keeping a tab on it.
So, it’s basic things like that. If they can do that here in Chiapas - no money, poor and all that, there’s no reason why we can’t do it here. So, what areas of our life can we begin to do it? When you look at them, it’s the same thing. They’ve taken back those parts of their lives that they can. That’s where they start. So, okay - harm-free zones, our communities, a block - can we, people who live here, people who’ve got respect in the community, can we figure out ways of bringing them into a process where they no longer have to call the police for anything, they no longer have to bring the government, the politicians into the process? They will realize that they can do it all along. For there’s two things, even with the harm-free zone thing, that we’re trying to get people to focus on, is that all the time, there’s little ways that people still govern their own lives. They look out after each other. They look out after each other’s kids. They make informal decisions around all kinds of things. The churches play a part. The mosques play a part. The community centres play a part. Then, there’s just folks in the community who are kind of the respected people. So, what would happen if we try to bring all of them into the picture, to see that we’ve just got to do this a little bit more consciously? We already do it.
Interviewer: It’s like mutual aid, right?
Yeah, it’s mutual aid. We already do it. It’s not really even creating anything different. Then, you go back to the Zapatistas. A lot of the things that they’re doing now, they’ve been doing for generations. It’s just being done more politically now. So, it’s the same thing. Let’s at least start with what we already do or can do. Then, let’s just go from there.
Interviewer: Inside the groups that you are a part of, how is it that if you are taking something that’s already somewhat existing and you’re drawing on it, there’s already a sort of negatively organized power system within community stuff - a lot of it is sort of negative, the colonizers’ opinion on how power is based. How do you go about changing that and how does that work out within the group dynamic itself? Would some people need to be disempowered a little bit or some people need to be empowered? How does that go on?
I can’t say that we’re even at that point yet but how I, at least, imagine it. It’s more so from the experience of the 60s and 70s, right? When you have an idea about how something needs to be done different, you’re going to come up against those in the community who are kind of entrenched with the old ways, based on whatever their connections are to the power structure. You’re not going to be able to get around the fact that you got to challenge them. It doesn’t have to be hostile all the time. But some of the times, it’s going to be. You want a chance to present your ideas and a different way of doing things. You want to be able to put it out there, so that you can find out who might be receptive to it. I think that’s where we’re at here, even with the harm-free zone thing. We want, even not only just the harm-free zone as far as political resistance but Estacion Libre, and how we see it working in our different communities. We want to be able to put out different ideas on how to take back our lives, which is why we want to challenge concepts around revolution and all this other stuff. We just want to be able to create a space where we can put it out there. Because right now, the dominant groups in the community, with their ideas of reform or black capitalism or whatever, they pretty much hold sway. But they’ve never been challenged.
So, why can’t we step into that and challenge it? To be able to have something concrete, to say this is a way we can do it - this is a way that these groups already do it; these are ways that we might want to try this. Whoever is receptive - let’s start there. I just think that even if we were to take the churches, for example, the churches are tending to get so conservative. But there’s a lot of membership who would be receptive to more collective things. So, okay - then, let’s create a space where they can hear that. If that should challenge the leadership of the church, then hey - okay, that’s what happens. But let’s see if we can start somewhere. I think that’s basically where we’re trying to get right now. We want to get into those spaces that we haven’t been. Usually, we talk to each other. What’s the point in that?
So, people right now are trying to get into the high schools, the community centres. Some folks want to get back just right in the streets where folks hang, socialize - so that we can talk, really talk and not just talk to but really have a kind of dialogue where people can hear something different. We can really get a good grip on where people are at. But let that kind of creative exchange happen, so that we can see how we might move differently. Right now, with the harm-free zone, we want to see whose interested. If folks are interested, then let’s start from there.
Interviewer: Just taking a count?
Yeah.
Interviewer: So, do you feel there’s a fear in a political community of having been tainted or corrupted by the street? I feel it sometimes. People don’t want to necessarily get down into working on the street or in communities or stuff like that because they feel their politics are so much at odds with what’s going on. I don’t know whether you’ve seen that or whether it’s just ineptitude because of the fact that they’re hard to relate. If you’re from that neighbourhood originally, you leave. Ten years later, you come back with new politics and nothing makes sense anymore.
Well, I don’t know. But I hear, I get a sense there’s a lot of people who are not from the communities that they live in. I didn’t move to Flatwood from Bedsty. From Bedsty, I was in Washington Heights. Moving from different community to community, never really kind of getting the chance to make roots, getting really to know people. Other activists, you find that they are from different places. Everybody gets this idea that you come to New York and there’s problems in a way. I think it’s problems in a way because you move there. You’re in a new area. But you’re never really getting to know your neighbours, from your actual next door neighbour to people around the block.
What I find is that a lot of activists meet with each other. They set up forums, demonstrations, discussions. But it’s only with other activists. They may want the community to come. They're not going out to the community. It’s arrogant, I think too. You want the community to come to you because you have all this knowledge. I think that that’s one of the reasons why New York and other places - we’ve not been able to recapture this kind of revolutionary spirit that we had in the 60s. Because it takes you going back into the community. I don’t think that you’re going to get tainted in that sense. I think you’re going to get tested.
Interviewer: It’s fear.
Yeah, It’s fear. I think you’re going to get tested; I think you’re afraid of getting tested. A lot of your own - I think this is the same thing that Mark Olson went through. You came here with all the ideas about how this was going to go - the Marxism, there’s the Maoism and stuff. The indigenous people are like - what the fuck are you talking about? Sit down and just treat us as equals - which for an intellectual is a big step. I think for us here, we’ve still got to learn to treat people as equals and not like we have all this great knowledge and we’re coming to put it in your head, almost in the banking method. I think that’s our challenge right now. But you’ve got groups and some individuals, a few groups and some individual, they really want to get in the streets. When I say in the streets, it’s not so much literally in the streets but meeting people where they’re at, in different places.
Interviewer: How do you see that going down? I mean, what kind of technique or tactic would be used?
For example, just a couple of days ago, one of the youngsters who I’m close to - her and a few other folks have developed a relationship with a particular high school. This high school caters to students who kind of have been put out of other high schools. So, they’re in this particular high school. We’ve been allowed to come in and do political education. It’s been really good because you find these people are so receptive to what to them are new ideas. Somebody coming in and telling them that, kind of giving them a way to rethink their rebellion, to show some movies, to have some kind of interactive stuff going on - they love it and they begin to see that they do have a role to play.
Now, there’s one person I’ll name - her name is Autumn. Autumn is young herself. What Autumn has is a great way of interacting that’s very participatory. She just doesn’t talk. She needs you to feedback. The students are really getting the sense that they can have discussions and they’re not being shut down. It’s things like that, right? It’s things like that - we’re kind of trying to get to other people. You’ve got to really interact. You’ve got to really learn how to have a discussion. You’re the activist. You just can’t keep talking and talking or giving somebody something to read. Even lot of people that’s in APOC (Anarchist People of Colour); a lot of us will have an aversion to reading all the, what we say is the dead white canon. Because we think too much emphasis, too much privilege is given to reading, and then reading these dead philosophers instead of sitting there learning. That kind of intellectual activity happens in all kind of ways. A lot of us are like - yo, man, there’s a lot of ways that people kind of get it or kind of work this out. Can’t we focus on that? Can’t we kind of create a space where people come in who don’t even like to read, who maybe can’t read? But we can figure out ways that we can help them to think it out with those of us who may have done tons of reading. But we’re not going to privilege ourselves just because we’ve done tons of reading. We could be as ignorant as anybody. So, that’s the kind of example that some of us are trying to get to. Put ourselves in the places where we’ve got more, kind of like regular people - not so much speaking to the converted. That’s just one example.
Moe, he’s another brother that’s part of APOC. I think Moe works with families out in Long Island who need certain services. It’s a job. But it also puts him into a position to have dialogue with people. Moe’s the type that he doesn’t come from a lot of intellectual stuff. He likes to really connect. But he has a good way of helping people to understand that you need to begin to fight back.
A lot of people in APOC want to do stuff like that - like Jonathan. Jonathan works with a lot of young people in Brooklyn, some of whom are gang members. Jonathan is young too. Jonathan is real clear that some of them don’t know a thing about revolutionary philosophy ideology. But they’re very rebellious. They want to learn more about how to take back their lives. He deals with them. He can talk their language because he’s a part of that - the whole hip pop language which I don’t know. But that’s how he deals with them. He hangs with them. He talks with them. He bonds with them, not in a way that he’s looking down on them. But they feel like he’s someone that they can talk to. That’s all basically and they don’t get that from a lot of people in positions of authority.
So, it’s things like that. We’re just trying to show people that we’ve got to do different. A lot of the older organizations are still caught up into methods of outreaching to the people that’s reminiscent of the 60s and earlier times, even the 50s or whatever. You’ve got the information. You’ve got the consciousness. Your job is to give it to those who don’t. So, what makes you think that they don’t? So, we want to challenge all of that. So, that’s why I say we want to put ourselves into the spaces where we’re talking to different groups of people.
Interviewer: How much do you think of this is oral tradition?
I think a lot. Because even when you say oral tradition, even when I talk about stories, a lot of us are beginning to see that people’s stories or creating a space where people can even tell their stories, becomes so key - that someone even would want to listen to their story. Or they’re willing to listen to other peoples and find that they have so much in common with someone else. A lot of us, I think, even consciously, we want to even kind of bring back an oral tradition in a sense. Because so much emphasis has been placed on the written word and the professional speakers; we lose so much else. So now, you’ve got poetry slams. You’ve got people who sing. You’ve got people who do street theatre. There’s all other kind of ways that we can get the exchanges necessary going.
Interviewer: I always found that anarchist literature is just the tip of the iceberg. Realistically, most of it was oral tradition. I think a lot of people didn’t read, a lot of people don’t read, a lot a people can read but they can’t read and there’s a difference between them. I know, maybe 7 years ago, in terms of how I could read maybe something but I couldn’t sit down and read a book. I couldn’t concentrate long enough. It took all the processes of academia. But I feel most of the stuff I learn about student anarchism is other people would sit and have conversations and talk about it. I think a lot of the things - people go into neighbourhoods they don’t work, sometimes, they get freaked out because someone will say something and they just can’t handle it because it’s so homophobic or sexist. I’m not sure. How do you feel, in a way to be able to deal with that? Because I feel like a lot of people don’t want to be around anyone that’s like that. But then, everyone’s like that. So, what kind of movement are you going to have if you can’t deal with anyone? Dealing with those issues ....
Yeah. I think we’re going through that now as far as APOC. I think one of the things that we’re getting ready to confront because I was telling you the other day, we’re trying to pull APOC back together.
Interviewer: What is the group? Tell me a bit about APOC personally, what it is.
Anarchist People of Colour. When was the first conference - 2003? But before that, there had been an interest, a big interest, around anarchism and anti-authoritarian politics with people of colour. Also, a lot of what I had to do with people like Lorenzo Irving and maybe a few other people. But his name definitely stands out. But people wanted to do a conference. People wanted to have a way to pull us together.
The conference was in 2003 in Detroit. I think, for our first conference and being in Detroit - oh man, how many people? Maybe a hundred and sixty people. Very diverse. What I heard later - I guess you don’t realize when you’re there. But the largest contingent there in terms of ethnicity was people of African descent. Very diverse in terms of sexualities. The queer contingent was very big. A lot of people were engaged in some kind of community based work, all right, or were looking to do that. But we went through a whole thing at one point around what would a people of colour anarchism look like? The key concepts that came out of there were things like community, spirituality and more aggressive ways, creative ways to fight back.
Then, many conferences after that, there was a critical resistance - not critical resistance, APOC south. There was the APOC south conference, the APOC west conference. There was one, I think, in Chicago. Pretty much all were the same in the sense that people just wanted more. Each one had more people coming out. Now, me, because I’ve been speaking more, I get around. I’m always meeting more people of colour, who already identifies that way or is very interested. One of the reasons that I think a lot of people are interested is because their experiences in some of the more traditional, nationalist organizations or socialist, leftist, communist organizations, have been very bad. They just felt shut down. Whether it was around their ideas, whether it was around their sexuality, whether it was around just the ways that they felt we needed to fight back. Somebody was always saying - no, we have to do it this way. No, we have to read this. No, we have to do that.
So, APOC becomes this space that people have been searching for in the sense of trying to do something different. But still we’re trying to work on - do we want to be a formal organization, do we want to be a network, something looser? Those are still the kinds of things we’re struggling with. The second national conference was suppose to have been this year in Houston. But some internal stuff, some internal problems they were having and then, Hurricane Katrina.
Interviewer: Just maybe in an abstract
way, can you think of the kind of problems that go on internally in that
kind of group?
Well, one of the things is this. Sometimes, personal stuff happens that leads
into other political stuff and people taking positions. The next thing you
know, people don’t want to work with each other. I’m real big on
the personal. I’m real big on - we got to begin to look at personal as
political, for real. That how we live our lives, how we relate to each other,
is really, really key. That if you can’t really get along or build good
relations with those who you’re calling your comrades or you’re
in the same organization, what are you really doing? What are you really building?
So, it could be around so-and-so goes with so-and-so. And they fall out. People
feel they’ve now got to take sides. Or around us not wanting to face questions
of privilege, within people of colour gatherings. All kinds of stuff.
Interviewer: So how much do you figure that it’s different? There’s always going to be people who have bad breakups; there’s always going to be people who have more privilege than others. How do you look at dealing with it in a way where it doesn’t come down to that kind of stalemate, silent, passive, fighting stuff?
Even in that - one, you got to at least be willing to talk about it. I think that’s such a big step. If you can’t even talk about it, talk directly to the issues, you’re going to have problems with it. If you can talk directly to the issues, you can figure out some ways that can help you work through the issues. People don’t need to see even things around privilege - the people with different privileges can’t work together. Someone, some person of colour, upper-middle class can’t work with somebody ghetto from the street. You can. But you just really need to learn to accept who you are and to say - this is how I was raised, this is what I had, this is what I bring to the table. These are the things I think you need to know about me. So that when you do certain things, the other person doesn’t have to take it personal, that you just insulted them, or you just were condescending towards them - all this other stuff. I think it’s the same as what we’re doing when we have anti-racist, anti-oppression trainings. We want people to be sensitive to how these differences manifest themselves. Because they are real. Like in APOC New York, one of the things that we’ve been avoiding talking about is privilege. So, folks who tend to come from a more ghetto background feel - other members or other people within that organization who are able to travel, they hop from one massive convergence protest to another - how you able to do that? How you able to have so much? I don’t have that. Let’s talk about it. But if the privilege person is acting like I’m down, I’m ghetto ....
Interviewer: Faux poverty.
Yeah. Let’s be real. It doesn’t make you a bad person because of the circumstances you were born in. It doesn’t make me more superior because I was born on the bottom. But we’ve got to at least to be able to see that and understand that we’re both looking to transform our lives. It’s not necessarily going to be easy. But we can do it. Then, I just think we stand a better chance of being able to work in a group that is diverse in many ways, even in terms of class and stuff like that. Otherwise, we’re acting like it’s all good. I don’t even like that expression a lot, 'It’s all good' - cuz it all ain’t good, when you ignore it, when you ignore some stuff that is very important.
Interviewer: So that means just, openness ...
Yeah, there’s got to be. I think the thing now that is different from the 60s is that we have a lot more understanding of internal stuff like this now. We’ve got a lot more skills in terms of how we can kind of work through this stuff. I don’t think we necessarily had it in the 60s.
Interviewer: Where do those skills come from?
I think a lot of it came from the women’s movement, the feminist movement. Then, a lot of folks who were developing a more radical psychology. I think it comes from that. That’s why I say now - you’ve got people that’s been doing this for a while and have certain skills. We will stand a better chance of trying to figure out some ways to deal with it much better.
Interviewer: So, in the group, let’s talk about either critical resistance or Estacion Libre . What’s the funding? How’s it work?
Critical resistance gets most of its money from that non-profit industrial complex. Trying to figure out how to wean ourselves off of it. It mainly comes from folks, progressive liberal folks, who either represent money or sometimes come from their own pockets. Estacion Libre - most of ours are from speaking engagements or right from our pockets. I think in the beginning, we were able to get some money from some foundations and stuff, progressive fund - it’s not like we’re not saying we’re not going to try it now. But a lot of the money comes from our own pockets. Or say, if I get to speak, me or one of the members get a speaking engagement, it will be specifically done to put money into Estacion Libre. But we also ask people that want to go on a delegation, if you can, whatever part you can afford, to go on the delegation to do, if you need help, it’s where we would try to come in and do some fundraising stuff. So, big difference between the two.
So, we don’t have to be careful about language. We can organize the way that we want. It’s really important. I’m glad that we’re able to maintain that. Other than that, I’m also on the board - not that I do a lot for it lately - the Institute for Anarchist Studies, which even money for that comes from a lot of folks, not foundations. But these are folks, a lot who are individuals, who have money, who consider themselves progressive - some will even consider themselves anarchists... they’ve got money.
Interviewer: I notice when - who has money, who’s on the list. There are anarchists with money.
Yeah, there are anarchists with money. They feel like they want to make their money useful. So, they give.
Interviewer: What are the fights like in the group about money? How does it work out when, if you’re using it, taking money from the government or whatever? What’s the debate going on?
Most of the groups I’m involved with, nobody wants to take money from the government. I think the main thing right now is the debate is around the reasons for taking money from the non-profit industrial complex or from someone like Soros, that guy ...
Interviewer: Open Society...
Yeah. Open Society. That’s kind of a big discussion right now. Even though we all say that we know that the revolution would not be funded, we have not really been trying to figure out how we can fund our own. For me, I look at examples like, when you’re talking about the Back to Africa movement with Marcus Garvey back in the 1910s, 20s - all that money came from, for the most part, from regular people putting in nickels, dimes and all that other stuff. I’m like - man, if Marcus Garvey and them can do that, we can figure out ways to fund our own movements.
Interviewer: I found that people, when that conversation has come up in anarchist unions ---- similar things most people don’t like ---- this trying to put together a thing where you give a dollar, whatever, not much. You’re not going to notice it. People are very resistant to doing that. What do you think that’s about?
I’m not sure. But I’m going to tell you the truth - how I feel. Sometimes, I feel that the resistance is, that even though we talk it, we are still afraid to make that commitment, even ourselves. We may want everybody else to do it. But when you really come down to it, if you’re saying that you’re willing to give of your own money - it’s a big step. It’s a big step. So, why don’t we do it? There’s some fears around. I definitely think, in the black community, people are so afraid of being ripped off or something that you’ve given your money to, you find out that somebody’s abusing it - that they’re very reluctant to give. But if it could be done in a way that you always see where the money is at and how it’s being used, people might be less reluctant to give.
The way it is now, I just feel like people are afraid for different reasons. But I think that activists are afraid because it means you really, really get me to take this to the next step. Maybe you’re really afraid to take it to the next step. Because it does require more commitment. It requires more consistency. It requires more involvement from you unless you just want to give and you don’t really want to be involved. But if you’re talking about really establishing something that’s going to last, that’s going to help you sustain - it does require more. Then you’ve got to question how much more of yourself do you want to give. Maybe some people have gotten very used to just kind of having superficial involvement. I really want, even just personally, I really want to be able to move to another level, maybe get people who may want to pool in and get a house.
Interviewer: Everybody pays rent. Right now, it’s going nowhere.
If not just to pay rent but can we buy a house? Either one though, what ways can we really cut down on our expenses, on our living expenses - so that we can do more, we can take care of each other more. But around that, for example, if it’s collective living, we’re asking people to try it. But you’re also saying - give up some of your privacy, allow people to know you a little bit more. For some, that might be the scary part. But for me, well, how do we do this if we don’t start to enter into each other’s lives? We’ve got to come into each other’s lives’ if we’re going to make this work. We can’t just be superficial. It just can’t be political, in the old sense.
Interviewer: I’ve
seen a lot of changes from the 60s. There was a group, live communally
- everything had to be communal. I see more realistically that people
have always been in their economy. That shit was crazy. I think that
it ’s out now but people are still sticker shopping around
for being economically communal. You strive for an autonomous personal
situation, ones like you’re
related but at the same time, you have more space. I don’t know
if you have seen that idea out there.
No. But I do think that we don’t need to get extreme. I think that some
of the 60s was so extreme. But I just think that we have got more information
out there. We’ve got other people who have experience with doing more
collective, cooperative living or been this and all this other stuff. We can
figure out ways to begin to pull out more and more from the system. There’s
so many things we can do. So, why don’t we start doing it? Which is the
other thing I like about the Zapatistas because they’re pretty much saying
- pull out. Pull out, as much as you can. Pull out. And the more people that
can do that - man, you’re talking about taking away things that this
system needs to survive. That’s a hell of a thing to do. But just imagine
what it means for you in terms of you getting your life back. You’ve
got new reasons to even want to live. Come on.
Interviewer: In a real way.
In a real way. That should be so exciting to you. That’s the thing that turns me on because it’s still exciting to me.
Interviewer: What do you say to people that are like - well if you’re thinking about buying a house and you’re not thinking about any sort of revolutionary ideas because you shouldn’t be worried about buying a house or getting any resources. You should be worried about making shit happen or whatever. Because I’m on the same page as what you’re talking about and I’m constantly coming up against that argument.
I think it is making shit happen. Right. I’m not worried even about some people. I think maybe one of the tendencies that you might do - you might get a house or you might start something. Then people kind of get caught up into that as something that just becomes for itself now. You kind of forget the reasons why you did it. I just think that if we can figure out how to keep people reminded of why we originally did this, we won’t slip into the, "now we’ve just got this cooperative business going. Now, we’re not so much involved in the political idea about how to transform our lives, how to take power back."
Interviewer: How do you keep that? How do you keep that alive? I mean, we've witness many cooperatives start to go away from what they ----- are. For instance, there is an old house that we use now, it’s good that there’s still community involvement. But it’s gone completely away from where it started. How do you keep it? How do you keep things alive in a sense? That’s why I think people fear that.
Yeah. I’m not sure. I’m not sure. But it seems to me, a big part is got to be, you’ve got to stay connected with the people in the community. You’ve got to keep connected to their lives and their issues. Sometimes, when we start to get insulated from the community, the other communities that’s outside of us, then we just tend to become for ourselves. I’m not quite sure on a lot of that yet. But I just know for me, I still have connections with political prisoners, I’ve got connections with family, I’ve got connections with other people who are outside and who suffer. I can’t do this without thinking constantly about how to bring this empire down, how we can continue to give more power to ourselves. I can’t, because people suffer. So, I just think it’s so important that you’ve got to maintain so many other connections. We’re connected with the Zapatistas. We’re connected with all these other struggles going on in the world. We meet new people. For me, it just makes me feel more the necessity to stay focused on what this is all about. I cannot see doing this for any other reason then changing this world. How do you do it? I can’t do it. But I think it’s because of my connections with folks. They just keep my own desire going, why I want it for me.
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