Interview conducted by the Affinity Project in December 2005; Published on August 15, 2008.
Part One Available Here
Part Two Available Here
1. ARMED STRUGGLE AND EXPROPRIATION
3. ANTI-WAR PROTEST AND THE POLITICS OF DEMAND
5. INCIDENT AT APOC NEW YORK FUND RAISER
*
I want to go back to earlier - you had mentioned expropriation. I wanted you to shed some more light on that and Malcolm X’s comments regarding ‘by any means necessary’. That if the cops were going to walk on with guns and batons and beat African-Americans, then we will resist. I want you to comment on that. Possibly as well, in regards to events of 9/11 and what you even see as acts of retaliation, or what are deemed acts of retaliation - say, in Palestine or what happened on 9/11.
Malcolm became such a key figure, in terms of what helped this movement to take a step towards or a step away from just being confined by non-violent struggle. It was important. It was really important. Because a lot of folks wanted to fight back. I’m not saying that non-violent resistance isn’t a way to fight back. But a lot of people didn’t want to be confined to that kind of fight back, which said that we could not pick up weapons against our enemies. Malcolm helped push that. It wasn’t like he was the only one doing it, because there was Robert F. Williams and others before him - the beacons for self-defense. All of the folks, even in the South, who were defending civil rights workers. They were carrying weapons. They just didn’t carry them openly.
The Black Panther party symbolized, in a lot of ways, kind of a culmination of where Malcolm was coming from. We could develop armed formations for self-defense and for aggressive guerrilla warfare. A lot of us, when we actually went to implement that, we discovered that it could work. That we could use it. Even if it did turn a lot of people off, it also turned a lot of people on. One of the things about it was that you began to realize - like with Franz Fanon. A lot of things that Franz Fanon said around what it meant for the colonized to strike back - how liberating that was. A lot of us who joined the Black Panther party and later, the Black Liberation Army, we began to really feel that concretely. What it meant to take up arms, to actually use arms.
We didn’t have anything to prevent us from thinking about financing ourselves. So, we went away from just defending our communities. It made us think that whatever we needed, we could get. So, if the movement needed money, there were banks. There were dope dealers. There were armoured cars. There were all kind of ways to finance the revolution.
We had understood it. Other movements around the world did similar things. We used to get lessons that would tell us about Lenin, Stalin and them. That Stalin was a bank robber for the movement. Some of the guerrilla movements in Latin America, Italy and other places - no problem; you needed money? There were ways to get money. It wasn’t adventurous for us, in the sense we were just doing something way out there. We were really convinced that there were no limitations to freedom.
Was there any sort of fear that came about with it as well? The dealer starts holding knives. The cops, the military, the government are going to start holding semi-automatics. Then, you get semi-automatics, and they’re going to start dropping bombs …
One of the things that we understood in terms of guerrilla warfare is that you’re not sticking around for them. That it really is hit and run. It really is cat and mouse. That you’re not trying to match them gun for gun. Crazy shit, right? But that was the point of guerrilla warfare - that it was some of the weapons of the week. A lot of it was more for propaganda than for any kind of just physical defeating your enemy purposes. That was crazy, right?
But we got a sense that, even in our guerrilla warfare, the enemy is vulnerable. We got to see it in such a different way, from even in the Black Panther party. because in the Black Panther party, weapons were totally, strictly, for self-defense.
The underground, in terms of the Black Liberation Army - they went further. There were police who were ambushed. There were drug dealers who were kidnapped. There were bombings. All kinds of stuff that was happening. To be able to see your enemy vulnerable was a whole another head trip. It made you sense just how much power we had given our enemies.
I guess stuff impacts me to this day. If we were to go into a demonstration today, you know that police are going to be all around, right? It makes me look at them so different than the protester right next to me. Because I don’t have any fear of them. The protestor next to me may not even be able to look them in the eye. I mean, you learn that these people were vulnerable. Because we had accepted the myth that they were all powerful and terrifying.
You probably had a greater deal of trust too with other people that were Panthers as well, more than with the protestor who is walking down the street...
Oh, yeah. Definitely. It was an everyday intense relationship. You had to trust each other. You had to watch each other’s backs. You really had to get to know each other, very quickly and very intensely. So, all of that was there. That is why, to this day, because of that, I don’t discourage anybody from taking that path. I just want them to know that you shouldn’t romanticize it. But it is a dangerous path. But if one is serious about being free, you’re going to always come to this point. In terms of what role this plays.
I think I’ve learned a lot more in terms of the way we saw that unfolding back then. I might see it a lot different now. But I never see it without the gun. I never see it without having an armed potential. Because I understand our enemies. But I also understand that sometimes, guerrilla warfare can work in a very elitist way. So, now as an anarchist, how does one keep it communal? Or rooted in the struggles of the people, of where you’re fighting from? Those may be some of the lessons that, if I was to look back and be critical of that phase - sometimes, the guerrilla warfare can become very divorced from the communities that it came out of. So, how do you keep that, maintain that?
Were you guys aware of the fact that the actions you were taking might directly impact those communities and the by-products?
Well, I understand there was that - for example, the repression. I understand it was that the black community is always going to get the brunt of society’s repression anyhow. If we were going to develop a struggle, then we got to expect that a lot of that repression is going to be focused on us; a lot of surveillance is going to be focused on us. As it already had been. Since the 60s / 70s rebellions, so much of the intelligence agencies and agencies of repression have been focused on people of colour communities.
People were saying to us that we were making it worse. We were making it bad for other groups that wanted to do work. But let’s be real. We’re already living in the worst conditions. We’re already getting the bomb. We've got to prepare for it. What we said was that one of us prepare the underground at every opportunity. Prepare the underground. Because you’re going to need it.
That’s how we saw it and that’s what we did. We felt others used that as an excuse - to delay the inevitable. For us, it’s like - no, we’re willing to take that risk now.
What methods were used in order for the Panthers to get to know one another, quickly and effectively?
The Panthers - a lot of Panthers live collectively or work so much collectively, we damn near live together. We had meetings. So, it went from everything from the work we did - from the free breakfast programs to community defense stuff to liberation schools stuff to meetings and stuff. Meetings, there was the thing - we kind of operated according to Mao’s Red Book. Which was very very good in terms of helping you to sort of quickly get to know each other. because you had to really be willing to self-criticize. We had to really get to know each other, to criticize each other, to build from the criticisms so that you got stronger.
But it meant that you really got to know each other. Very fast. Because you had to begin to accept challenging each other on things - mistakes made, weaknesses shown. I’m not saying that it didn’t kind of get out of hand sometimes. But what it also meant was that, in the circumstances with you trying to build this revolution and counterintelligence programs, and the local police department is doing their thing - you had to really be on your toes. Not only in terms of the enemies. But building a relationship with your comrades to get work done. From the community programs to the underground. So, whoever it was you were working with, you were going to know damn everything about them - family, their quirks, your quirks.
Tell me how you feel about 9/11.
9/11 for me - I can tell you about it from the day that it happened. Going to work. We’re going on the subway, me and my partner. Going across the Brooklyn Bridge. Obviously, something happened. It felt so funny. It looked like there was smoke coming or something happening over towards the Towers. Couldn’t quite get a handle on what it was. I got off on 23rd. I worked on 23rd, between 5th and 6th Avenue, at Fortune Society, which was a program that provided services for former prisoners. You looked towards the World Trade Center and all you saw was this gigantic smoke thing. Me and my partner thought that the revolution might have just started.
All that day, I’m hoping I get a phone call. I was hoping that like magic, somebody would call me on the phone and say - Ashanti, this is it. Tell me where to go. I’m ready to go. Then, later on, you find out what happened, right?
But people like me and my partner and our crew, we all feel like - even if it is who they say, the United States have got to expect to get attacked. I mean, to be so arrogant. Then, you’ve got all the media on your display to obscure what’s really going on. But for us, it was like - finally, somebody broke through to attack on the grounds of the United States, in the Empire.
It didn’t matter that they just considered these people fanatics or whatever. People resist. It may not always be to what you might do. But you’ve got to expect that if you’re fucking with people, they’re going to find a way to get back. They were playing up the whole thing with Bin Laden and them - they’re the rich; they’re privileged. So what? They use that privilege to attack.
You must have faced a great deal of backlash after 9/11. Tell me what Ashanti did - to stand in solidarity. The discussions that were happening.
Oh, a lot of discussions. We used to do Black House. Black House was every month or so, every couple of months, people would come over to our place, after the South African dissent. It would be our space to kind of socialize; it was always a political thing that we might discuss. But around this time was when a lot of our South Asian comrades were catching a lot of hell. Some communities, Black and Latino folks, were attacking them. Like the Sikhs - not even Muslim, right?
The same shit in Kandahar.
So, our South Asian comrades - they were reaching out to a lot of us in the movement. Asking for some needed help. Some of these communities that folks were getting attacked, they wanted to go to them and engage people right there about what’s going on. Why are you attacking these people? A lot of us felt that obviously we want to figure out some way to help. We figured out some ways to kind of provide some immediate support and stuff. But we felt powerless in other ways. Because a lot of us felt like - damn, man; we are under attack ourselves every day. How much can we really do concretely, when we feel like we’re under attack every day ourselves? The police going to kill some other black youth - this and that. But it made us realize that we quickly had to figure out something. Because we didn’t want to leave them feeling like we were just going to abandon them. So, we figured out, even if it was just elementary stuff like - some of us can come over periodically, to be on hand. We’re going to provide some lawyers. We’re going to get people that will help you go to the communities. We mapey not be able to do much. Because we don't have it all figured out, but we wanted to show some support.
Do you think it was sort of a missed opportunity to build more bridges between communities?
I think that it happened to some extent amongst the more nationalist communities. The nationalist communities are always going to have a better understanding and would be more willing to invite somebody from Muslim communities to have those kind of discussions. But the time - I think that even the time it happened, that it probably would have happened more if the atmosphere wasn’t so fucking charged. You had so many people who were into this patriotism. Even black folks. But the discussions didn’t happen. It could have happened more. But I think that if they happened anywhere at all, it happened more in black and other people of colour communities, amongst the more nationalist folks.
Was there a response to any of this patriotism you witnessed?
For me, I just got fed up with black people, my people, coming out with all this patriotic shit. But it was a larger trend. It just didn’t happen with 9/11, but 9/11 - it just took such a more advanced form. One time on the subway platform I thought, if it wasn’t for this other brother who was an activist coming on to the platform, I probably would have said nothing and just went - eventually got home and just been angry.
Because the engagement happened, it made me realize what the role of activists was: to engage. Not be angry and just close up. What you found out was that people operate on an automatic tape; they will repeat what they hear from the media and from the so-called official leaders on what a situation is. But when you remind them of history, not only 400 year-old history but history of just the last presidential election, then - okay, the tape kind of shuts down. They say - yeah, you’re right. Yeah, this country never treated us right. This country is fucked up. It’s always been fucked up. Why should I believe them?
After that, what some of the activists did - at Union Square, 14th Street Union Square, they would go there and just engage people in conversation around the whole thing. Even though some of it was hot and intense, and some of it got almost violent, it was just so good that there were so many people who were willing to engage in the conversation.
Who was doing the engaging?
Was it Muslim brothers or sisters?
The engaging was mostly activist folks who were probably not religious one
way or another. But amongst them, was some of the activist folks who were Muslims,
and of other religions who people perceive to be Muslim. So, it was both. But
then, in the more nationalist communities, you had folks - Muslims who tended
to be kind of activists, who were the ones coming to speak to different communities.
To let them know that they’re being misrepresented - the whole thing.
But some of that, some of the folks were kind of liberal-conservative
to those who were more radical. So, you had those more liberal-conservatives;
they wanted to distance themselves from what happened. It was almost like
- we’re Americans too. What the fuck?
But that thing was happening so much around that time too. You had those Muslims who just felt like this was their time to get up and say, with their American flag - we’re Americans too. This country has never treated you right; what are you doing? But you see the fear that a lot of them had. A lot of the cab drivers. Muslims - they’re fearing for their lives. I can understand. No question I can understand. But it was to get other people to see - look at the situation that the United States has put them in. Now they are rejecting what was so essential to them in terms of who they are, their beliefs - in order to stop people from attacking them.
Do you know more about Islam through that process?
No... In prison, my comrades, a lot of comrades became Muslims. So, I used to go to Ramadan every year. I’m doing Ramadan, reading the Qur’an, being told I'm 1/30th and all this stuff. I learned a lot from being around my comrades. So, I always felt like I have a good understanding of Islam. It’s a help to me, even to this day, to be able to explain to other people what I think Islam is. So that they don’t have to be afraid of it. That’s always been a big thing with me.
If you don’t mind me asking, why do you think you didn’t convert to Islam?
I think that when I was in the Panthers and we started learning about dialectical materialism - the science got me. The science, for me, gave me better answers. To this day, I say I’m an atheist. But I stopped really calling myself an atheist, because I just don’t like a lot of the things that it’s associated with.
I find myself appreciating the spiritualities more, people’s religions. I try to get away from the word religion and I’ve learned to appreciate it so much more. So that it not only helps me to understand people who are different from me, but to get into the whole mindset, to see maybe how folks see this world different. It’s such a help, I think, in enriching me.
It was important for me, not only to read, to be able to understand somebody else. But to be able to see beauty. That’s like with that other book - that guy Osho. For him to bring his beliefs to the United States and show how eastern and western philosophies can work together…
You’re talking about oneness?
Yeah. In prison, I read Carlos Castaneda. Before, if you weren’t a materialist, I didn’t really appreciate it. But materialism is just one way of seeing the world. That’s why I like post-structuralist stuff and whatnot, right? Because it just decentres that shit. You think for some reason that it’s the most profound way to understand the world, is through materialism.
Do you feel that there was pressure from your comrades who have converted to Islam to see you do the same thing?
Oh, no. There’s no pressure. They want me to, but they don’t pressure. I know that’s because of their religion, right? There is no compulsion. So, they never pressure people. They let me know that they want me to, and they’re waiting. But that’s the relationship I’ve got with them and I really have a good relationship.
How do you feel about suicide bombers? Could that be used as a tactic?
Man, I think it’s the same with the towers. It’s not what I would choose. But I understand. I respect the people who choose that kind of fight.
Even if it causes harm to innocent civilians?
Who’s innocent? One of the discussions that used to come from the Palestinian struggle in the 70s was around the whole thing of who’s innocent. This was the thing around the towers too. People went to work in the towers everyday. If you chose to put your head in the ground just because of a paycheque and the benefits you get from working at a certain place, you’re not innocent. Your silence and your wilful ignorance - you make a choice everyday. Everyday, you have to make a choice. When you choose to ignore that, and other people are suffering, you can’t really beef when somebody chooses to fight back and you’re the target.
I wish it was different. You look at all the people in the building. They’re not the main targets. But they play a part. So, if that makes you really see what role you play when you go to work everyday, when you consume everyday - you need to see what you do. No matter how hard that might seem. You need to see what you do.
Do you feel that that was a higher, harsh price though for those people to pay?
Yeah. I may have felt it was harsh. But Nat Turner did his thing. Nat Turner and his crew killed men, women and children. Would I have done the same thing? Probably not. But people are oppressed. A lot of times, they fight back. It’s not going to fit my idea of what’s rational, what’s sensible. But I never want to lose sight of why they were in that position originally, and what happens to people when they’re in that position. What are all the things that people do to resist? I wish it was a lot better. A lot different. But they may wish that we fought back differently.
So, do you think that anti-war protests are just too pacifist, especially in cooperation with the police, deciding on particular routes and letting the police know where they're going?
Yeah. I’m so sick of anti-war protests. Especially the ones that are making demands... I’m into Richard Day, right? I’m reading his book. I’m so much in agreement. He’s talking about those who are not fighting from a logic of reform. I’m not trying to ask the system to reform. I’m not trying to appeal to Bush’s conscience. All these other people, these anti-war movements - it’s so much trying to appeal to some kind of higher moral thing. I’m like - come on, man.
They don’t give a shit.
That’s where I’m really at. So, the only thing I think that can be beneficial for some people - they’ve got to do that to be able to move to a different place. But the people that piss me off are the ones that do it professionally. It’s just a part of the game; they are part of it. I don’t care if it’s ANSWER - none of them groups that’s a part of. What’s the other one? United for Peace and Justice... It’s bullshit. But I try to respect why other people go. Like the Millions More march, the Millions More Movement. Bullshit, as far as my thinking. But for some people, it’s a point that something that they do, that they got to do, they feel they got to do. From there, there may be a chance that they move on …
I think with ANSWER marches, like 99% of the people marching don’t even know what the hell ANSWER is. Do you agree with that? There’s just sort of people who march and protest. I found that during the war protests ….
I wouldn’t doubt it. I wouldn’t doubt that they don’t know. But the thing I’m really clear about is that ANSWER knows. They know what they’ve done. I just want for people to be more realistic. My thing is - well, maybe it isn’t always about going to Washington, D.C. and these other places. Maybe, we need to think about what we can do in our communities. I mean, what else is really going to make the change happen? Our communities are what make the change happen. Washington is not going to do it. Or whoever you think - the World Bank and the IMF and all these other bodies. It’s us.
So, you wouldn’t attach as much value - what would you say, for example, people of colour and them writing more literature to perhaps reawaken that spirit? Or do you think that it more has to do with the oral tradition of doing things?
No, no. I still think that it sure plays a part. I think the oral tradition just needs to be brought back more, right? I still think that the books, the newspapers, the magazines still play a part. I don’t know if you know this David Graeber guy. So, there’s a place for the intellectual as well as for the grass roots folks that are not intellectual. I mean, I read all the time. It’s very helpful for me. But I know that people in Chiapas, basically, are not readers. May not even be able to read. They have other ways of getting what they need.
I think that’s one reason why the bridge between the activists who are academics and those grass root activists is so important. Because I do think that so much that the way the world is now, there’s so much we’re trying to understand. That academics have been going through learning certain concepts that does bring a different light to a lot of stuff going on and then, gives us hints, insights into what we might need to do different. We just need to create a way to share what they get with what others on the ground, like the risky stuff on the ground, with a certain kind of organizing or fighting back.
Damn, it might be helpful to hear how somebody else sees it. The back and forth exchange helps the academic as well as the academic helps here. Because the academic wouldn’t even be doing it if it wasn’t for some kind of original connection, or desire to help the grass roots struggles. So, the mutual thing can work. I think it would be good in a sense, too. Academics tend to just stay stuck in the tower. They probably would love to have a foot back in both worlds. For a lot who started off as activism to the universities, now find themselves divorced - but still trying. I just think there’s so much. So much.
What do you want to focus on for the next few years? Do you want to continue on just focusing on Critical Resistance?
Critical Resistance. APOC. I’d like to put a lot more into APOC. But Estacion Libre - they were kind of like my food, right? Estacion Libre is kind of like my number one. Because we generally see ourselves as trying to figure out how to do a Zapatista-like struggle right here, right? We’re from different places. It can fit in for me what I do on Critical Resistance. Because Critical Resistance - if we could do this harm-free zone, it would be a very concrete local practice, right?
The folks who I generally tend to work with are people of colour. But I have great relations with all kind of folks. Which is very, very important. So, all of it, for me, fits in. I just got to, even in my mind, I got to figure out how to do it better. But I want other folks to figure out all the relations that we do have already with all kind of different people. Now, how can we begin to try to pull it together?
Is it a hard choice picking between these different groups that you stand in solidarity with? Like Critical Resistance and how much time you give to them? And Estacion Libre?
Yeah, sometimes it’s hard. Right now, one of the goals of Critical Resistance is to bring into membership those most impacted by the prison industrial complex. That has been a problem since day one for Critical Resistance. Most of the people that come to Critical Resistance are young, white activists. So, we’re still trying to change up, figure out why it is that we can’t seem to bring in or maintain people of colour within Critical Resistance.
Is that just with Critical Resistance that that aspect of people of colour? Or do you find that it exists with other groups as well, comparatively speaking?
I don’t know. I mean, it’s definitely not APOC. It’s definitely not Estacion Libre. Because that’s also a people of colour organization. So, I’m not sure if it happens with other groups. But at least, the thing with Critical Resistance - even in Florida, for example. The first meeting that they had to start the chapter brought out about 50 people. All 50 people were white. In Florida. I mean, you don’t want to stop the process. But you do want to figure out what it is that the very people that you want to reach are not coming.
Why do you think it is?
Maybe the way it started. I mean, Angela Davis - big respect in the black community. But not necessarily within the nationalist circles of the black community. Then, I think also the internal culture - we need to look at the internal culture of Critical Resistance. because being that it was started by people who tend to be intellectuals, it’s kind of reflected in the internal culture. Regular folks come into Critical Resistance and you sit through a meeting, you’re expected to know some things. If you don’t know some things or understand that language, you’re going to feel a little isolated. So, I think a part of it is - we’re going to have to look at our internal culture.
Is that class?
That’s class. Definitely. We’ve got to face that.
So, does it become more useful to have somebody else with you that is perhaps more associated with that class or that knows people, that particular group? Or that would act as a mediator or as an insider, so to speak, into that group?
That would help.
How do you do that without being condescending though? I know that if I am sitting, before I was educated and all that kind of stuff - it’s like sitting at the dummy table or something.
Yeah, I think all of the things we would have to be concerned with. At one point, we were doing really good. Most of the members of Critical Resistance, New York City were people of colour. But part of it was specific outreach. Then, part of it, with the space we were at in Brooklyn, we would have events there - like Friday night movies and other things that some people from even the neighbourhood would come.
We could have done better with the follow-up. But at least, it did bring some people of colour in there. At one point, we were strongly people of colour. But there were some things we weren’t doing good. I think it was the internal culture that was holding them. Because I really feel - I’m for consensus. But the village can be like - ugh, I still have a problem; I hate the chair. Because it’s the language and shit. You got to know the shit.
Like the facilitator …
The facilitator role. Augh. If you’re not used to this stuff, man - that’s some alienating shit.
A lot of times, some people of lower class, it’s like - who is this? I don’t want to talk to you. Because everything I have to say is going to be bad. Would you actually pay attention to my problems? You know what I mean? I ’ve seen that happen working in anti-poverty groups; stuff like that will happen. I think the go around, for the most part, is out the window.
But I’ve been in other spaces where we may have had a meeting with people of colour who were not used to consensus. Not as strict. But who would really appreciate a meeting that heard them, that recognized them. That’s one of the reasons I was saying - a lot of folks, they have been used to being in spaces where they’re there. But there’s nothing saying that you are a human being, that I want to hear what you’ve got to say. So, we would have a meeting or something, they were saying - wow, this is the first time I felt like what I had to say was important or that you really saw me. Man, we’ve got to do this more.
What was the difference? What was it making them visible more than before?
Because you want to hear people comment on things. You want to hear what people think. You make a specific request for this person. Or you’re asking other people, like the men - yo, y’all shut up, right? They appreciate that shit. Man, I know, I know that if they had the experience of things that were more anarchist, anti-authoritarian, they’d be there. Because that’s not the experience they have on the job, at home.
Do you think that’s one of the important issues for APOC? For example, in New York - because people of colour can get together and discuss their own problems that they face and other avenues for which they may be dominated, they get a chance to actually discuss their own issues.
Yeah, definitely. It’s definitely very important. Then, for APOC to be able to go out to difference and communities of colour, and share that kind of atmosphere. So that others can see why that’s so important.
So, the key point is that you said eventually, APOC is able to share its experience with other communities as well. It’s not going to be an isolationist position where people of colour don’t share their experiences with other people at the end of the day. Is that fair to say?
Yeah. Definitely. That’s so important. So, I know that, for me, the conditions are really good. The opportunity is there for us to seize. Another one of us has got experience in interacting with other people and setting up that type of condition. Where people see that their lives, their thoughts, their concerns, their fears can really be put out here, can really be expressed. That we can really figure out how to do this stuff. That they do not need somebody above them. I mean, it’s just there. I want to see it happen.
So, what will it take for shit to start happening again?
For us to meet. For us to meet and us to really make some steps. To say from here - let’s take some risks and go out and do things. I mean, you’ve got people that want to really go into communities and interact - the people that really want to do direct actions. It’s all there. Then, let’s do it. Let’s take the risks.
Are people scared of what happened in Miami - the direct action? If I remember correctly, APOC experienced a lot of preventive repression …
Yeah. But just before that - it was when they attacked the office, when we were doing the APOC fundraiser here in Brooklyn. So, then the Miami thing happened. But folks know. I think folks are still willing to take some risks. But for a minute though, you kind of sensed, especially with the attack on the office - people are a little afraid.
What happened there afterwards?
They won; they all got acquitted. So, the next process is to sue. So, some of them should be getting some money. I just wish I was in on the suit. I’d be in Mexico now. But this was right after the first APOC conference in Detroit. I mean, we raised some money. But it wasn’t enough. Some people put some money out to cover the costs, right? So, the promise was that we would do a fundraiser to help reimburse this person or these people.
So, we had it at the Critical Resistance office in Brooklyn - which was this really great space. The party was going well, beautiful. Everybody’s having a good time. Then, the police shows up at the door. They claim that there’s somebody on the sidewalk drinking beer from an open container or something. Bullshit. So, I’m inside. People - I guess they kind of give me the head position because of who I am, right? So, they’re like - Ashanti, the police are at the door. They want to get in. So, I go to the door. I’m like - what do you want? I brace myself for a lie. He wants to come in. I say - well, no; you can’t come in. I mean, is there some crime that has taken place that you must come in here? And if not - no. I don’t care if you don’t like it.
So, he takes a little offense at me. So, his partner - we’ve got a little standoff going. So, he called to me - why, smartass and stuff. I say - whatever. So, his partner comes in from the street. because he’s got one foot in the door, one foot out. Because I’m not letting him all the way in. So, his partner comes in. It’s like - okay, Joe; I guess everything’s okay. So, let’s go. So, Joe ain’t going to take it like that. So, as Joe turns, Joe does one of these and he elbows me, right? I pushed Joe. So, Joe turns around and starts swinging; I start swinging. They pulled him and my crew pulled me. But when Joe gets outside, he starts wiling out more on the people outside. They’re just starting to beat people up. Within seconds, you’ve got 20 cars on the scene. They are pepper spraying, beating people down and arresting people. Whole bunch of confusion.
I don’t know why I didn’t even get arrested. Because it was several times - I’m in piles with them and people would keep pulling me out, right? So, they arrested about 8 people. But eventually, I was able to get most people inside - even though I wasn’t able to get everybody inside. But they ended up arresting 8 people. So, the whole thing was around there. But the beautiful thing about it was the people really never experienced that before.
Did they eventually let those 8 people out?
They got out. Most of them got out. That night, or the next day. All these crazy charges and bullshit. But the best part about it was that the people that came to our aid before that night, was out in the days that followed. It was so beautiful. People from different organizations - old days, they didn’t even work together. Came. Were comforting people. Right afterwards. You know how you always got folks who know some medical stuff? So, you go to the demos and stuff. There’s always people that’s going to do it - you’re pepper sprayed; oh, they know what to do. A lot of us were pepper sprayed and shit. So, they’re like, my eyes are burning up and shit. And other people. So, they go immediately to work on this. People were going through some real trauma - emotional shit. There were some people there that were helping them through that.
All the days after, there was extra security on the office. People were always there. We were feeding; we were taking care of each other. It was great. I tell people - that was the best thing to happen. To show how much we could do for each other. Some real powerful shit. But after that, then things kind of calmed down and went to normal. When they finally went to trial this year, the police and them were doing so much lying - the judges threw the shit out, after about 3 days. So now, they can sue and stuff.
But I tell people - man, that’s what it’s about. We came to each other’s defense. People came, not in a judgmental way. Some people, they needed some spiritual stuff. There were people into that and they dealt with them. There were other people that had physical wounds and shit. There were people that dealt with that. But then, all the other days, we were eating together. We were fixing food together. We were watching each other’s back. All this stuff. I was most happy, the days after. Because I wanted people to see. But it’s some emergency situation. And in emergencies, we tend to do this. But it’s just to get people to see this is what we need to do, 24/7.